jacobins3000 (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

When has reason let us down? Please give me one example. You postmodernists are a bunch of ingrates, the enlightenment has given us more freedom, more knowledge and better living conditions than people could possibly have imagined 200 years ago. We live in a utopia compared to any other time and place in history, stop whining and show a little gratitude to the brilliant enlightenment minds which made this miracle possible.

Stitchman3875 (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

Actually, God is Dead first appeared in the book "The Gay Science". It doesn't specifically refer to "God" as a figure. But rather as a construct. What it really refers to is that if one let's say does something that says "I did x for God", it is an inauthentic act. The same is true if it were Love, Family, Country, Job ect. Nietzsche's motive was to remove any construct that negates responsibility. In that way Love, Family, Job, or anything can be "dead" according to Nietzsche.

jfjweb (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

It sounds like you are living in conflict of beliefs... you need to work out what you believe before you challenge other's beliefs. You said if the God of the bible exists... either He does or He doesn't. If you believe that He doesn't, how did you come to this conclusion?

49thStreetBarricade (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

I do not believe in any particular God, nor the validity of Scripture. If the God of the Bible does indeed exist, then he is only just because he decided he was just.However, yes, your point is valid, but this challenge is for me, one of so many that just makes Judaism and Christianity appear as folly to me. Basically, I think that the Jewish people need humanism and rationalism, not Judaism or Christianity.

jfjweb (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

Do you really believe that God has infinite power? Do you believe He is just? I think this is one of the biggest challenges I face when I do look at the state of the world today and say to myself, if God is LOVE how can He allow for suffering? What do you think God expects of us so that we could keep from contributing to that suffering and how can that be achieved?

BnetTheAwesome (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

No, my beef is with saying we are "intricate" when we have no other planets or systems to weigh.Also, morals are expressions of emotions and survivalism. You can't a priori justify morals and use it to weigh. Also, we are assuming our morals are right, when they are just developed hedonism, survivalism, and slavery from the animal kingdom.

49thStreetBarricade (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

Well, God has infinite power. I would simply give human beings freedom to believe as they wish, but deprive them of the ability to inflict suffering or unconsciously make decisions that would cause them tremendous suffering simply by mere mistake. My point is that if God were infinitely powerful, the issue of sin could be solved in such a perfect way that would neither violate human free will, but at the same time, avoid violence and suffering to the extent that it's morally questionable.

jfjweb (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

That is fair, but if you were God, how would you do it?

jfjweb (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

So to answer your question, we are all sinful and in need of forgiveness. Jesus did not come to condem anyone, but to live and die and raise from the dead so that we all could have that forgiveness. This is a message of hope, not damnation. Is there any other way to be forgiven according to the Tanach?

49thStreetBarricade (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

Actually, as a secular Jew, I do believe that Judaism is harmful to the interest of the Jewish people. And so I would have to agree: the God of the Tanakh is murderous, barbarous, callous, and downright abusive of the Jewish people. However, as the slaughter of the Amalekites, Canaanites, Moabites, etc. indicates, he seems to have a bloodlust for more than just his "own" people.